Interview: The feminist fight

A social scientist by training, Kamla Bhasin has been actively engaged in issues related to development, education, gender, media and several others for over 35 years. She began her work for empowerment of the rural and urban poor in 1972, and she has been visiting Nepal since 1976 for various projects. Recently the famed feminist was in the capital to host an annual, month-long feminist capacity building course with representatives from various Asian countries.

Priyanka Gurung caught up with Bhasin at the programs local host and partner TEWA premises to talk about her opinions on the feminist movement.

There are many people who shy away from declaring themselves a feminist. As a feminist yourself what do you have to say about this?

Indeed this has always been the case because feminism is a difficult 'ism'. This is the only 'ism' in the world which enters your family. In feminism, you question your husband about household work as well as child rearing. You question your own father about how much property he bequeaths. You question your mother about pushing you into traditions such as chaupadi. You question your brother about taking the property and forgetting about you. What's more, the main person you question in feminism is yourself. What are you wearing? How are you behaving? How are you dealing with people? No other 'ism' challenges you so much. So I would actually warn people before calling themselves a feminist.

You would caution them? I figured you would be keen to convince them to join the cause?

I do want to convince them but before that I want them to know exactly what feminism is about. You cannot laugh at 90% of the jokes once you become a feminist because 90% of the jokes are anti women. You can't watch 90% of Bollywood and Hollywood films because they are anti woman. You become acutely aware of these things, so I recommend that they consider this seriously.

While advocating for women rights you have always made it a point to include and talk about the importance of men's involvement in the movement. Could you explain your reasons behind this?

The opposite of patriarchy is not matriarchy. It's gender equality. For me, the fight for gender equality is not a fight between men and women at all. It is a fight between two mindsets and how we think. One mindset says patriarchy is better. The other mindset believes equality is better.

Besides look at a 20 or 50 year old men who rapes a woman. Is he human? I don't think so. I think he is dehumanized. A husband who can beat his life partner, a man who enjoys touching a woman's breast in a bus, are they human? Were they born like this? No. It is not biological or we wouldn't have the likes of Buddha and Gandhi. Who created them? We, the society, made them the way they are. When we don't hold them responsible for their actions or when we even excuse them from household chores and family duties, we turn them into these selfish, brutish, violent people. I consider this a great loss as there is nothing bigger than the loss of humanity.

In your opinion, how has anti feminist sentiments evolved over the years?

Earlier there was traditional, cultural and religious patriarchy. But now along with that we also have capitalist patriarchy. Pornography is a billion dollar industry and most of it is where men are using women as sex objects. Those who enjoy it, can they respect women? The cosmetics industry is a billion dollar industry too. A man is a man because of his job and money but a women, the cosmetic industry says is a woman because of the way she looks. The toy industry too is playing a part in promoting the stereotypes. These are only a couple of examples and again against all notions of equality.

I am afraid even education and awareness campaigns have not had much of an effect. Did you know, in the last 100 years in India the percentage of women is decreasing? However, did you know sex ratio is the best in the tribal districts of India. It's the educated middle and lower middle class people who are not interested in having female babies and they are being enabled to do so by well educated doctors.

But what about girls and women who do enjoy playing with Barbie dolls or wearing make up? Surely there is nothing wrong with that?

If it was not wrong then why would you spend millions in convincing us? Leave it to us. The problem is you and I don't decide. In the present environment, we are not given the opportunity to decide. It's dictated how and what women should do. If they want to then that's fine, but I don't want anybody to be condemned for not sticking to the stereotypes and this applies for men as well. I don't want any man to be told you can't dress up in pink or any woman to be told you can't ride a motorcycle.

Still the notion we get from some feminist is that if you are sticking with the stereotypes you are not supporting the feminist cause. You are being weak. Maybe the message needs to be clearer on this matter?

Just as there is no one Hinduism, no one Islam or Buddhism, there isn't just one version of feminism. So if one feminist is giving that message, then, fine, that is her message. It is not my message. I say feminism should be like water that so easily takes different shapes. So feminism should and can take different forms according to the society and the people who raise the issues.

Do you think there are instances where the concept of feminism can backfire? For example, while reserving certain positions at work for rural women can be helpful, in the urban scenario, it is almost like you are giving people a readymade excuse to undermine their capabilities.

I doubt it. Show me the statistics if the situation has improved in the cities. There are so many educated and capable women around but how many editors-in-chief does Nepal have? America, after 200 years of democracy, still hasn't had a women president. 99% of judges in the Supreme Court around the world are men. If we don't have to advocate these things in the cities, give me the statistics. As for other people using these as excuses, the fact is they will use any excuse so let them.

Five generations from now, do you think feminists will still be fighting for gender equality?

It will depend. If capitalism continues like this, if pornography continues to multiply, and if Bollywood films continue to rule us, then yes, we will still be fighting. It is overwhelming at times. Disappointing even, but what is the alternative? I'm not going to sell cosmetics. It's a worthwhile cause.

Lastly, do you have any feminist role models?

No, not really. But there is this 18 year old girl in our programs here right now. She does not know who her father is. Her mother is a migrant worker in Malaysia as well. So she is taking on the responsibility and living with her younger siblings. But you should see the way she dances in the evening. Plus she is a student leader in a political group of a student union. I'd say she is my idol. I don't have to have a role model in America or anywhere. There are just so many inspiring women around us and there are tons of equally inspiring stories as well.